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The Celtic Revival Plan PDF Print E-mail
Written by Harry Brady   
Sunday, 02 October 2011 15:11

revivalplangraphicFollowers on Twitter will know that I was rather irritated on the night we lost away to Sion.  It was a final straw as I once again saw the same mistakes repeated during an away performance by Celtic.  Varying systems, numerous players and different managers but the outcome was the same; a comfortable victory for a team that on first impressions were not as good as us.  It was for this reason that I didn’t revert to the usual rant against the players and/or manager.  For me there was something more endemic about our problems.

The easiest thing in life is to stand on the sidelines and tell people they’re doing something wrong: we football fans are past masters at that.  The greater challenge is to offer a viable alternative – “bring me solutions not problems” is the hackneyed business phrase.  Therefore I decided that if I was going to have a rant it had to be to offer an alternative.  As a consequence I tweeted various proposals which I called a Celtic Revival Plan.

The Celtic Revival Plan is NOT a definitive fix-all for our club – who would be that conceited?  It is an attempt to propose an alternative to what we currently have.  Any comments or counter comments would be greatly appreciated, I just have one request; I pulled this together to do something more than say “this is all rubbish” and I would ask that any critiques are equally constructive.

The plan comprises two main aspects, business proposals that could be adopted now and an outline of how Celtic could join the likes of Benfica, Barca and Hamburg in being true democratised fan owning football clubs.

 

Step 1: Formulation of a roadmap and strategy that people understand, can deliver in reality and get behind.

This is really the corporate strategy of Celtic.  The fans, season book holders and shareholders are the club and deserve to have a full and detailed understanding of the clubs 1, 5 and 10 plus year targets.  I appreciate that we cannot be provided with every minute detail that may jeopardise strategic commercial agreements or transfer policies, but a roadmap so that we understand the ethos of the management of the club.  That is what this document attempts to do and people at the club may shake their heads when reading and say this is all in place.

If it is tell us!  But I suspect most of it is not.  We have an understanding of some of our policies such as buy young and sell on, but we really need a bit more information than that. 

 

Step 2 - Peter Lawwell leave the club 

The points itemised are not personal, they are business decisions necessary to drive the club forward.  I do not know PL personally but I believe we need a complete overhaul of the executive board (limited as it is).  As a consequence PL would have to leave.  He has done an excellent job in many ways, fulfilling the obvious direction from the club’s majority shareholder but I believe a new structure is required and a £3/4m salaried CEO is not part of that.

 

Step 3 - Appoint new CEO earning circa in line with market and above Scottish average for similar sized company - £300k 

As Neil McCallum has highlighted on this site, we have a highly paid CEO, but is he overpaid.  The average salary for a CEO of a FTSE listed company with turnover between £25m - £100m is £250,000.  The explanation for this wage is that it is necessary to prevent our highly prized executive from being poached by a Premiership club.  But we wouldn’t do that for a player!

The most important employees at our club are in the football division.  We are consistently told that we cannot try and compete with the EPL for player wages, and I agree.  So why are we allegedly doing this with executive wages?  Especially in the current climate, there are many highly skilled individuals who could take on this role at a third of PL’s salary.

 

Step 4 - Appoint more exec directors to bring fresh mgt thinking (no extra cost as you've just saved £400k on CEO salary)

When I tweeted this on the night, someone understandably commented that the last thing we need is more suits and whilst the football division must always be the priority, getting the right structure off the park will assist the club achieve this goal.  At present we only have two executive directors, a ridiculously low amount for a business with our turnover and I suspect this in part explains the need to have such a well paid CEO.

I do not have any dealings with PL, but I know he is passionate about our club being a success.  I also have heard from a variety of people, former colleagues unconnected with Celtic and others at the club, that PL has a fantastic eye for detail.  The downside of this appears to be an executive who gets too easily bogged down in micro managing every aspect of the business.  One the best pieces of advice I was every given was that every business needs someone like that – just never as a number 1.

The biggest challenge to any company operating in a small business environment is to continually bring new ideas and new thinking and this would be the most obvious benefit of a change.  We heard directly from Tony Hamilton on the Lost Bhoys podcast who small the media division is at Celtic Park and regular listeners to the podcast will know how much we believe this division needs to be developed.  With such a disparate support how can we maximise commercial income if the part of the business best placed to reach those supporters is so under resourced?

A definitive outline of the executive board cannot be arrived at from those of us looking in from behind the glass barriers but from my knowledge of the club I would have the following;

  • Director of the Football Division
  • Financial Director
  • Commercial Director (responsible for multi-media as well as sales & marketing)
  • Chief Executive Officer.

This is still not a massive number of executives, but it is double what we currently have.  Also in this model the CEO would have more time to take a strategic overview.  You never know, we might then enter into commercial contracts which provide more than a NET increase of £500k on what we already had (!)

 

Step 5 – Appoint a Director of Football

The eagle eyed among you will have noticed a DoF role above, a position commonplace through out Europe but something as frowned upon in the UK as a Keeper punching a cross.  In Britain we have been used to iron fisted managers who controlled every aspect of the football club.  But times are different and such managers are few and far between and that Stein/Clough like figure who runs everything at the football club is now pretty much of a bygone age.  It is stating the obvious to say that the business of Celtic is football, yet we do not have an executive on the board whose sole remit is control and management of the football division.  In what other industry would appointing such an individual be perceived as odd?

Over the past few years we have seen an overhaul of the management, coaching and playing staff on at least three occasions – what a complete waste of money.  It is the way of modern football that failing managers are quickly dispensed with.  It is therefore essential to have some steadying overriding person who is responsible for maintaining the football ethos of the club.  Moreover in this modern world where failure means dismissal, managers are unlikely to take any worthwhile long term strategic view of the football division as a whole.

In the current set up we have a de facto DoF in Lawwell, but he wouldn’t fulfil my criteria for such a role.  Also by creating this position it covers one of the other points detailed later – clear lines of authority.

DoF should be in charge of every aspect of the football division, ensuring that the ethos of how the club play football should be the same from under 9 through to first team.  It would be perhaps the most important strategic appointment at the club.  They would need an understanding of the business of football but MUST be a football person.  Perhaps the biggest challenge would be the Scottish press getting their head around this person NOT having any input into the day to day running of the first team but having a strategic overview.  Oh and it wouldn’t be a Jock Brown type either!  Perhaps this role would be best filled by a foreign DoF e.g. Josef Venglos or if going for someone who understands the club it would be better someone who has never been a manager such as Brian McLair or Paul McStay.

 

Step 6 - DoF to publish strategic review of our European travel failures

For MOST of my life as a Celtic fan defeat abroad has been the norm.  Just changing players and managers has not changed the result.  One of the first tasks of the DoF would be to undertake a route and branch review of our football strategy and implement a policy aimed at providing a constancy of outcome in our European campaigns.  We should have Champions League 3rd place or EL group top 2 positions as the norm.

 

Step 7 -D of F to publish strategy detailing how 50% of first team squad will be self generated in 8 yrs

McGeady and Forrest have been examples of what our system can produce but we should be looking for 50% of the first team squad to be self generated.  Whilst undertaking the review in step 5, a strategy must set out our plan to achieve the targets above with at least 50% self generated.  If we already have such a strategy, it’s not working! And if it’s just been put in place and Next Gen is part of that – one of the next points, transparent strategies for the fans please.

 

Step 8 - Reduction in wage bill from £35m. Re-allocation of assets into stronger youth setup.

The recent article from Mark Cooper on the site illustrated that in recent times our squad has been over paid whilst under delivering.  Porto have achieved more on a lower budget, and this season in Europe demonstrated that Celtic (with Sion) and Rangers (twice) were beaten over two legs by teams with wage bills considerably less than ours.  A self generated squad would lead to lower wage bill and free up money to be spent on a couple of key, experienced players and also release capital revenue for other aspects of this plan, such as youth development.

 

Step 9 – DoF to create a world wide scouting network

I appreciate that the UK DOES have different work permit rules to the rest of Europe, but our obsessions with England and the Championship has led to the over paid and under producing squads outlined above.  Our own youth set up should dovetail with the scouting network to unearth young talent everywhere and once in a while find another Izaguerre.

 

Step 10 - Greater transparency from Celtic Plc and really listen at AGM. Build dialogue, engagement and trust.

Now that we have a new structure in place it’s time to start a new dialogue with the fans.  Celtic are more than a football club.  This ethos that was set in our formation is sometimes forgotten.  If we are to continue as a PLC (see below) that a new partnership must exist between the board and the fans.  As we saw last season, the club united as one family as never stronger.

 

Two further steps are required to deliver this spirit of co-operation:

Step 11 - A Celtic Communications dept and PR office that embraces digital media and new technology. Not push agenda.

Earlier I identified the need for a commercial and marketing director.  Regular listeners to the CU podcast will know that this is a real bug bear of ours.  The piece is long enough so I will not bore you here; suffice to say that the number of people involved in this division is greatly inferior to the increasing importance to customer interaction required in the modern world.  No wonder we’re left in the dark about our club when this division is so under resourced.  A lot of the detail above cannot be achieved without improvement here.

It was a terrible mistake to allow for the failure of Setanta to allow for Celtic TV to be taken off the Sky platform.  Building your commercial division is about keeping dialogue with the fans.  In the current world that means using as many media avenues as possible – Internet, Facebook, TV, Twitter, email, post and newspaper adverts to name a few.

 

Step 12 - Honest & transparent report on DD's role at Celtic 

People have mixed views on whether Dermott Desmond is good, bad or indifferent to our club, but for a non-executive director who never attends more than one board meeting per year and who owns only about 1/3rd of the club he has a massive say in how it’s run.

In business meetings in USA or mainland Europe I am told that DD is often introduced as the “owner of Celtic Football Club.”  In the process of pulling this together one of the contributors spoke with a leading financial institution who stated that they would consider Celtic a private limited company, such is the control of DD.

It has become accepted among fans that Dermott runs the club and decision makers defer to his opinion, yet I state again, he only owns a third/  He’s a non-exec director and shouldn’t be running the club, as explained on wiki;

Non-executive directors have responsibilities in the following areas, according to the Higgs Report, commissioned by the British Government and published in 2003:[1][2]

  • Strategy: Non-executive directors should constructively challenge and contribute to the development of strategy.
  • Performance: Non-executive directors should scrutinise the performance of management in meeting agreed goals and objectives and monitoring, and where necessary removing, senior management and in succession planning.
  • Risk: Non-executive directors should satisfy themselves that financial information is accurate and that financial controls and systems of risk management are robust and defensible.
  • People: Non-executive directors are responsible for determining appropriate levels of remuneration of executive directors and have a prime role in appointing, and where necessary removing, senior management and in succession planning.

We need an explanation as to what authority DD exerts over the decision makers at the club.  The courtesy of attending the odd AGM or two would be a start!

 

Step 13 - Lobbying of Sky TV, ESPN for fairer distribution of TV money and working with other SPL clubs for a better league structure

As part of the points above we should ONLY be focussed upon creating a product that the majority of paying customers at Celtic want.  This past week has shown the worst that football on TV produces with a 6pm EL kick off time.  I am lucky and can accommodate this.  For thousands of fans, attending on Thursday night was a non-starter.

Domestically there is the TV deal and league structure. It dismayed me that we were in favour of a top 10 last season, a size of league 86% of Scottish fans don’t want.  We are also half of the reason TV invests in Scotland, but as a proportion of our revenue, TV is poor.  We therefore have the unusual luxury of being able to be more militant about demanding a better deal for the fans.  Most importantly than that, a proper league structure and decent TV deal which organises things to suit the fans who pay to attend will only help the clubs – how much better is our atmosphere when we play at the same time as Rangers?

 

Step 14 - Complete overhaul of Celtic Park facilities to improve stadium generated revenues.

Another big irritation of mine is the fact that we have virtually stood still since Fergus implemented his plans for Celtic Park.  I have written on the site before (and so won’t bore you) about how every game at Celtic Park needs to be turned into an “event”, anyone who has attended test match cricket will know what I’m talking about – we need to get as much going on around Celtic Park on match days to get people early and spending their money on Celtic things.

I have for a long time advocated some simple refreshment stands outside the ground – basically one big shed with a long serving counter and cover, with screens at one side showing games.  People are hanging about in town before games so why not give them a reason to get along to Celtic Park and spend money there.  In the summer I went past Eastlands and noticed that they had the very same thing.  Very simple and relatively cheap.

I also don’t understand why there is not more around CP to get the fans there on the 13 days between home games.  I recently met a business colleague at CP prior to moving on to the meeting in one car.  Afterwards we searched around for an appropriate place for a de-brief.  As two Celtic fans, we would have been delighted to have a meeting in the Celtic “Legends Coffee Shop” but it’s not there.

As I have said earlier, this article is long enough and designed as an outline – I could go on and on with this section but I’m sure you get the point.

 

Step 15 – A Fan owned club through a membership scheme

All of the above a doable by the current board, but there is one thing which I think is imperative but would require those fans who want it to happen to stand up and be counted – For Celtic fans, existing shareholders big and small AND the current board to work together to achieve a remarkable common aim.   It would need very robust systems and processes to ensure that only appropriate individuals are running the club after change over, but I believe it could be done.

Celtic were founded for charitable reasons in 1888 to be a club of and for the deprived communities of Glasgow’s East End. Over time this changed and for the best part of 100 years they were within the ownership of a small group of families.  By our centenary season, many people saw the need to change that and in 1994 Fergus McCann facilitated the mass ownership of Celtic.  Under the stewardship of the PLC board, that mass ownership by the fans transformed our club like no other in Britain.  Over 29,000 of us now own a stake in the club.

1994 saw the beginning of Celtic returning to the position where it was owned by all of the community.  Since then the PLC structure has allowed mass ownership to develop whilst ensuring the financial stability of the club.

2003 gave a glimpse of how big Celtic are.  Seville saw the greatest movement of people across Europe since the Second World War.  We want to harness that Celtic Diaspora; build on the foundations first laid by Fergus McCann and put Celtic first among teams in Britain and right up at the top table in Europe.  We want to lead the way and let the world’s greatest football club become the world’s most democratic football club owned and run by the fans.

A community club owned by the world’s greatest footballing community – the Celtic fans.

My financial model (which I will not go into here) would require 50,000 members paying circa £120 pa.  Not sure – well look at Benfica;

The Benfica System

In May 2004, Benfica's membership was c.95,000 and the club had dwindling attendances. At that time, an aggressive marketing campaign was launched to raise it to 200,000. On 30 September 2009, Benfica announced that it had reached the 200,000 mark for paid-up members. Membership is €12.00 per month (€144 per annum) and is treated as something of some importance. It is commonplace for parents to subscribe for their children (boys and girls) when they are born. After 25 years membership, the member receives a silver eagle (the eagle being the club symbol) and significantly enhanced voting rights over other members. After 50 years, the member receives a gold eagle and even greater voting rights (c.10 votes versus 1 vote for an ordinary member). A decent season ticket is priced at c.€300 per season and is additional to the membership subscription.

The dramatic increase in membership has been mirrored by a significant rise in match attendance. Prior to the membership drive, home attendances could be as low as 20,000-25,000. Now home matches are never less than 40,000 to 45,000 - the stadium having a capacity of just over 65,000.

The Club has now set targets to increase membership to levels of 250,000 and 300,000 over time - this in a country of only 10.7m people and with major rival clubs such as Oporto, Sporting Lisbon and Braga. The City of Lisbon's population is 481,000.

The big thing for me is the change of ownership to a membership scheme – one person one vote and that requires a lot of work.  Have it ready for our 125th Anniversary in 3 years time?

I apologise for the length of this piece, but what we need to do doesn’t come in a few sentences, indeed above is a summary and by no means exhaustive.  I would like to thank Neil McCallum, Michael Dolan and Eddie Pearson for their input.  Others have also given input into the membership scheme and for now I will just thank you to people who know who they are.

Any comments on twitter @harrybradycu or @celticrumours or below would be greatly welcomed, but as stated at the start it’s easy to be critical.  Constructive comment is what the club needs now.

Last Updated on Sunday, 02 October 2011 18:22
 

Comments  

 
+5 #1 The Poacher 2011-10-02 15:34
Timely article... best be away to read it now though.

Podium!

Step 1 & 10 - A board/ supporter liasion office: I tried (and failed!) to ask the question before about where our strategy was heading if, as it appeared, we would not be heading for the EPL as DD wanted. The roadshows Lawwell has provided the previous season have gone some way in addressing this - the Celtic Trust would go further and say fan rep at board level is more appropriate. Either way it requires greater detail and resources than ad hoc Press Conferences & supporter evenings. In short make communication go in 2 directions rather than 1.

Step 2/4 - definitely strip back some of the Chief Exec's power and salary. Why is an accountant in a director of football's position?
Functional management rather than line management.

Step 6 - this was what Dr Jo was supposed to be was it not? Certainly that was McCann's view on it going on the History interview.

Step 8 - I'd say pour as much money into Lennoxtown and the youth set up as it can handle. This is surely the best placed method to producing players who want to succeed at Celtic?

The Benfica model sounds ideal but as you say yourself it is something that wouldn't happen in the short term. Hope it builds momentum though.
 
 
+1 #2 Macq 2011-10-02 17:25
I agree entirely with the sentiments of the article that certain things must change.

What I don't agree with is that such wholesale changes are required.

Sir fergie was on the TV Friday talking about Mancini and mentioned that the football manager is the most important person at the club.

That should be the priority. Get in a good manager, supply him with the appropriate investment to fund new players (unfortunately we will need a massive overhaul given the extreme lack of quality in the current bunch) and we take it from there.

All of the above is mere window dressing IMO. For instance, I don't have a problem with the current wage bill per se. The problem is that right through the squad the guys who are getting those wages are in no way shape or form value for money. Brown, Hooper, Commons, Majstorovic etc etc etc. That comes from bad transfer business.

I couldn't really give a stuff what the CEO gets paid as long as we are winning on the park. I couldn't give a stuff about any communications department as long as we are winning on the park.

In short, get the managerial position right (DD has had 4 chances and got only one correct), give him the necessary money (even though it will mean going a bot further in debt) and we'll be fine. But does DD have the inclination to do this or is he just happy to be churning along ensuring the balance sheet isn't too shabby?
 
 
0 #3 Auldyin 2011-10-02 18:07
Excellent well thought out article Harry.

I would approach it from a slightly different direction through a process by which the phases and steps you identify would most likely emerge anyway, then be prioritised, resourced and managed to implementation but where you get buy in from the start from all stakeholders with no resistance because no one feels threatened by the logic of the process.

Look out for me after the AGM. :)
 
 
+3 #4 Hank Moody CSC 2011-10-02 18:50
Terrific article Harry.

A plan that I would have no problem in backing.

Just a few steps that caught my eye -

Step 4 - We already have a Finance Director (Eric Riley) and Commercial Director (Adrian Filby), so we're not far off what you recommend in your article.

Step 5 - In my opinion, we already have an 'unofficial' Director of Football in John Park. We know he oversees 'Football Development', Though, what is 'Football Development'? I'm sure that like any supporter of the Club would say the position is to manage the scouting network, and Youth development (with Chris McCart and John McLaughlin answerable to him).

Where my confusion starts in relation to John Park's position is how he can have say on administrative posts concerning the First Team i.e. First Team Liasion Officer. To me, he seems to be what I stated above - an 'unofficial' Director of Football.

Step 11 - As I previously mentioned, Adrian Filby's remit is Commercial Director. We could do well by obtaining contact detalis for him, and passing on our thoughts and ideas, with at least some creditable feedback coming back to fans from Mr Filby.

Had a brief look for his details but never came across anything. Could maybe ask Tony Hamilton if there is a method of contact for Mr. Filby.

Keep the articles coming Harry. Also enjoy your views on the podcast. Hail Hail
 
 
+4 #5 Michael McKeown 2011-10-02 19:01
Firstly Harry, great article. Again you offer a great insight to the world of business which to be honest I haven't a clue about. Keep it up on the podcasts as I love listening to it.

So, with this in mind, only things I can comment on with any knowledge would be items 13, 14 & 15.

Lets start with 13. What do you mean with "fairer distribution of money"? You mean the SPL as a whole, or a bigger slice for Celtic?
Personally, I would like to tell Sky to do one, and get back to the way it was for me as a kid with a Sunday tea time slot on STV/ BBC for SPL highlights, and not just a goals round up. Too many of our younger kids who do not have the luxury of SKY are missing out with the SPL being shown at 11pm on a Monday night. How is that recruiting young fans? As you indicate, we need to drive a hard bargain, but at present for the fan who is not a SKY TV couch potato the current TV deal is rotten. With regards to the League structure, I am one of the few who likes "The Split". I see the merits of it. However, I think I am alone in also liking play-offs..... See Belguim Jupiler League for example. This is a whole different debate though, not one for here.

Step 14 is a complete "no brainer" for me. As a fan who has had the luxury of attending games in Germany, England and the USA (with Celtic) where I could enjoy a beer if I chose too, to be told that I cannot do it here is a sick joke. To take it further, the whole matchday experience as you say is poor. I am a fella who like to go up early, beat the traffic, mingle about. There is nothing but buy an NTV and see if there is any faces I know. Nothing doing at the stadium whatsoever pre-match. Also, Post match. I was invited to the Kerrydale Suite for the United game this season (first home game). At approx 6:15 after the game they switched the TV's off and closed the bar. I asked what was happening? "Eh, Son its been a long day for us, and if you want to continue watching the game and having a beer, please go to Lounge 5 (other end of the stadium BTW) and continue. Eh? There was about 75-100 people sitting having a beer (watching Stoke Vs Chelsea?? I think), at £3 odds a beer, they were chipping us out because "We have had a long day!" What sort of amateur operation are Celtic running? If this is happening in the suites, then what chance a bar for the fans? NO CHANCE! We need an overhaul of the thinking upstairs on this.
Step 15. Where do I sign up? I have passed up my season ticket this year as I have a young family to look after just now. However, I would gladly pay my dues to the club for me and my kids if there was such a thing open to us. Again, the Politburo at Celtic Park are never going to allow any powersharing. How can we get this mindset changed? I personally cannot see it in my lifetime, but never say never.

Again Harry, thanks for taking time out to do this. Another great piece to get the braincells chewing over!

MM.
 
 
-9 #6 Sir Alfie Connand Doyle 2011-10-02 19:07
Very good article Harry.

Only one thing was missing. The name of the new manager.
 
 
-2 #7 mickzg2n 2011-10-02 19:24
Harry this is well thought out and is an excellent article, many truths and some god srtategies.

I know you don't want to go into the membership plan in great detail but I've never heard anyone come up with a method for dealing with hte existing ownership. It is just possible that Dermot Desmond could be convinced to walk away with nothing, but I won't.

Existing shareholders would have to be compensated. A plan to give us all a year or two free membership would surely set back the finance available initially.
 
 
-2 #8 mickzg2n 2011-10-02 19:28
I did mean good strategies - if available I'd go for God strategies though.
 
 
+3 #9 john88 2011-10-02 20:50
great article
if only our present custodians on our board
had a little of the foresight in this article.
i have supported the club for almost 60yrs
and lucky enough to have lived through our golden
yrs of euro finals, semi finals,nine in a row ect.and feel sorry for younger supporters who have been let down by various boards over the years and only had the odd successes i.e seville
to celebrate.
i know times have changed and financially we will
not compete at the top european level again but taking into account the size of our club and resources
we have we should be winning our league and competing in europe at a decent level.
this is where the board is letting us down big style
 
 
+1 #10 The Thinker 2011-10-02 21:39
Fantastic article, truly fantastic.

I believe in your vision harryboy but I have one simple question(I am not great on the business side of things)

Do you propose that the fans 100% own the club or that the likes of Desmond and the majority shareholders do?
 
 
+4 #11 Harry Brady 2011-10-02 21:51
Macq I understand your point, but without the proper infrastructure in place success on the field will continue to be hit or miss. That is why I started by commenting that this piece was created by another European disaster - different personnel same results.

Also I do not believe that a review of our football mistakes is best made by an attention to detail accountant or a baying mob requiring instant success. I want a Director of the Football division dealing with this.

The thinker - my proposals (which for a variety of reasons I have detailed the finances here) would result in a one person one vote membership scheme which is slightly different to Benfica which actually has 60% fan ownership 40% shareholders. As I say in the piece you would need to have a belts and braces set of checks and balances to prevent the lunatics taking over the asylum
 
 
+4 #12 laurel_bhoy 2011-10-02 22:22
As far as I'm concerned step 15 is all that is required.

As long as we are a listed company we willl never grow because the objectives of those that run the club will not be in line with the fans.
 
 
-4 #13 Theyhaveneverwonit 2011-10-02 22:44
Harry you have obviously taken a lot of time and effort to write that article and fair play to you for doing so but I kinda lost the will to live after reading sack Peter Lawell and then the next line of get in a CEO who earns a salary in line with other similar sized Companies.

I dont believe Peter Lawell is the problem at our Club. We have a Manager who does not know his strongest 11 and who makes unnecessary change after change, week after week, thats the biggest problem currently at our club, as soon as he learns to stop that he might get somewhere. But hey, sack Peter Lawell and bring in someone on a lower salary that'll sort it. The correct strategy is that, you get the right guy for your job description and you pay him the salary he is worth in the current Marketplace, never mind what the Chief Exec of Scottish Power or whatever Company is earning, that's irrelevant. The Chief Exec at our Club is an incredibly important position and 2nd only to the Managers and getting someone in because he'll take a salary in line with other companies with a similar turnover is not and should not be one of the criteria for deciding on the right person for the job.

The Membership Scheme you mention is interesting, maybe that seed was sewn after your interview with Brian Dempsey although its worth remembering he said in his opinion it pretty much cant happen now, it was a one time opportunity back when Fergus took over the Club. However quoting a big name Club like Benfica, who have a similar scheme is all well and good, there are others we know, however Benfica have won the league 4 times in the last 20 years and won it once since the Membership scheme started in 2004 and all that in a country where the league is usually a 3 horse race. One of the main reasons Porto do well is because of their seemingly unrestricted access to South American markets, they currently have 17 out of 26 players in their current 1st Team squad from South America, 9 of which are Brazillian, no doubt with Portuguese Passports.

A good thought provoking article Harry.
 
 
+4 #14 The Thinker 2011-10-02 22:50
Why did someone give me a negative comment for asking a genuine question?

Cheers harryboy, that is an interesting concept.

We should start a revolution with guys like yourself and the gentleman that made the 'Celtic/Porto comparison article' and really start to demand answers from our board because the status quo has to go!
 
 
+4 #15 Quiet Assassin 2011-10-03 06:52
A very well constructed composition Harry and one I've been looking forward to reading since hearing of it on one of the podcasts.

There's a lot of information above which will take more than a few reads to suitably digest but I'd like to initially say the following;

The roadmap idea is a sound one and to be honest, from a business point of view glaringly obvious. Make your customers aware of your vision and include them in it!

Agree re: Lawwell, however I think he'll be off at the end of the season. Bigger money than ours beckons from the obese EPL and I'm sure he'll soon be feeding at their trough. As for DD, the perennial mystery man to 90% of Celtic fans, should be put under the microscope and his decisions made more public. Does anyone outside of board level know exactly which club policies are a direct result of DD's influence / input?

Re: Greater Transparency / PR / etc....this is simply good business practice, however our club have a shocking record of PR and going further I'd say the lack of adequate PR is nothing short of an abuse of the fans and our loyalty (and money).

My thoughts are already well documented on twitter @Tonyh1888 regarding our use (or lack of) of new media and the ways our club should be reaching out to our global fan base.

I like the idea of a Director of Football, but so long as he has no input in team affairs and is involved in transfers only in an advisory role.

Stadium redevelopment is your classic no brainer but the lack of investment in facilities is again an example of the underlying problem at board level within CFC. The endemic abuse of our money and passion for the club.

Moving on to the fan ownership scheme, this is where our club could really move on both on a financial level as well as flexing our muscle in regards to TV revenue etc. I'd certainly like to have a look at your financial model Harry.

One of my own pet bugbears with CFC is the fact that we don't utilise the brand enough globally. We should be looking at opening Football (Soccer) Academies in places like North & South America, Africa and Asia. These are the markets where we stand a better chance of picking up the next "big thing" and we should be putting facilities in place to catch kids young. Anyone who has the suitable potential could then be brought to Lennoxtown for future development.

Have to take my hat off to you Mr. Brady for a very well thought out and reasoned article. Will be interesting watching how this develops but one thing is certain, this should be made available to as many Tims as possible.
 
 
0 #16 Spud 2011-10-03 07:06
Trying not to be critical but this is a lot of effort Harry but in the end a slightly misguided selection of random football initiatives which work to varying degrees throughout the football world.
You fail to understand the business dynamics and the role of the ‘owner’ DD and the CEO PL. Do you honestly think that either of these men wishes to be unsuccessful? Regarding PL’s salary, as a now mid-ranking club in a diddy league we need a top professional at the helm to give us credibility and help us punch above our weight in the football world. If you pay peanuts Harry ........................
Your comments on fan ownership are interesting but again fail to acknowledge the social demographics celtic are faced with. As a predominately working class club we have a large section of our fan base whose already stretched disposable income is already given to the club through season books and merchandise. Our supporter base is not the wealthiest. In addition, we do not have the tourist fans of the EPL or Barca or Real. We are in the East End of Glasgow.
Agree with your comments regarding getting the fans out of the pubs and having a fan park. However, again this fails to take into account the cultural and tribal aspects of the fan base and the role which alcohol plays in Scottish society. The work to shift people from a few beers before a match to a Latte and some cordial banter outside the ground is a job too big for Celtic.
Sacking PL is not the answer, removing DD only works if we have another very rich Celtic fan to come in and replace him and looking across the city be careful what you wish for. Our current management team is unproven and sadly this is now being cruelly exposed but interestingly the manager seems off limits for criticism to some sections of our supporters.
As a football business we need to get the football side of the business right – bums on seats, attract high profile sponsors, invest in the match day experience and start winning. Not sure the last point is achievable with the current Manager.
 
 
+2 #17 frank57 2011-10-03 08:57
Very good article Harry. Worthy of detailed consideration. It's a shame we are so close to the AGM leaving little time to put anything forward this year.

I wonder though how much of this would have been necessary had the club bitten the bullet and appointed a top class manager.
 
 
+3 #18 dannybhoy170 2011-10-03 11:16
Thought provoking article Harry, but I am in broad agreement with #16 Spud.

The failures of the last few weeks and principally we are talking about Sion, St Johnstone, Rangers and Hearts are mainly to do with the mentality of the players and their ability to cope in a crisis- which in their case means losing a goal or having our crossbar severely rattled.

Take, Ibrox- we did lose a poor goal but managed to take the lead and undoubtedly had the initiative at half time. Second half- the same players remember- collapsed the minute Davis rattled the bar you could see them all looking at each other for leadership. Ditto yesterday at Tynecastle.

Last season we had the title in our own hands and could have buried them without hope with one kick from 12 yards at Ibrox. After which the players collectively failed at Inverness.

I'm not saying PL and DD are blameless but the faults of the last few weeks lie at the door of the players and by extension, the coaching staff.
In mitigation, we have been blighted with dreadful injury problems.

Put it this way Harry- 2 draws at Ibrox and Tynecastle and you would not have penned this article. True?
 
 
+2 #19 cardiffbhoy2 2011-10-03 11:58
Harry, an excellent and thought provoking article.

Sorry for the long winded response. I agree on pretty much most of what you say but a few comments on some of the 15 steps.

1 - What is it, what do we want to be, Top in Scotland, top 20 in Europe ? How do we hope to achieve it. Every business has a plan, ours appears non-existent. There is no succession planning, as evidenced by the appointments of our last 3 managers.
2 - I'm no fan of Lawwell, but before we do this, we have to address the issue of Dermot Desmond. If Lawwell is following orders from above then there is no point in changing him for another yes man.
5 - Davie Hay would be my choice, and should have a similar role to the likes of Rummennigge at Bayern. If John Park is currently doing this role, can we have clarity on what his qualifications are, and his successes, i.e. did he find Kayal and Izzy, for example.

10 - This comes back to step 1. As you said the club united last season, yet we are split again, less than 5 months after the end of the season. Fans, plc, players and manager all appear to be pulling in different directions.

12 - This is the single most important step. Dermot Desmond does not own Celtic, yet he acts like he does. From appearing on the pitch at Tannadice to offering his views on the manager's job chances at the Cup Final, yet he cannot attend an agm where he may face criticism from the great unwashed.

13 - TV - If you look at our accounts the vast majority of our income comes from the fans, in ticket revenues, and merchandising, with minimal from TV. It's time the fans views were taken into account rather than TV deals.

15 - membership scheme - good idea in theory, but as someone has commented, Benfica have had little onfield success - Porto shows that a PLC can work, if done properly. Lyon are another club where the business model has worked to an extent (see Why England Lose by Simon Kuper & Stefan Szymanski if you haven't already)

Again, apologies for the lengthy response, I'm only glad someone else is as "irritated" by me at our current position.
 
 
+4 #20 brendan2k 2011-10-03 12:24
The most positive approach I've seen to our current situation and one I hope gains support.

Its so easy to carp and moan but not so easy to offer a solution. Well done for trying. I'm sure there are many arguments against much of what you say, as there were for Fergus. Spud's remarks above are so like the Kelly's comments on Fergus's plans. In the Kelly's time those like Spud were telling us that we shouldn't have season tickets because we were too poor. They also told us that the share issue would be a flop. I wonder if anyone has recordings of the financial gurus who jokingly pointed out that as Man United share issue had failed it was ludicrous to think that Celtic could succeed.
Also while I do not for a moment thinks I speak on behalf of everyone I know many many supporters who do not seek out pubs before the game. I like a pint from time to time but I'd be fine with a latte and pleasant surroundings. The stereotype of the football fans is wrong. We are not all poor working glass and drink dependent. Lets move on and find ways of building a movement based on your plan.
 
 
-1 #21 Spud 2011-10-03 13:41
#20 Brendan2k.

If you read my comments carefully you will note that I refer to the factual social situation in Glasgow - Celtic cannot change that. I never referred to Harry's plan failing, merely he had not taken account of the wider economic variables.

In addition I also stated that the fans already give so much to the club - how much more can they be squeezed?

Celtic fans should have everything - again I stated - invest in the match day experience.

Many fans would enjoy a latte pre or post-match but I also know guys who get on the supporters bus to go to the game and end up staying in the pub instead of going to into Parkhead.

As you say, not all working class but many are so can you keep getting water from the same small well?
 
 
+1 #22 TiminExile 2011-10-03 14:43
Am i right in thinking DD owns just under 30% of the shares, so the majority of the other 70% are in the hands of normal celtic fans who in the main stumped up £600quid in 94/95 ?

Surely that 70% should be getting together to have a say in the running of the club? It seems that at AGM's no hard questions are put to the board. those 70% should be turning round to DD and saying, "you don't own the club, we do!"
Can the 70% not get a boice on the board.

If DD wants to appoint a Chief executibe, a list of candidates should be put to every shareholder to vote on. Each candidate could market his plans for the running of the club (transfers, youths, facilities) etc, and the shareholders could vote in an election style every 2-4 years similiar to the clubs in spain who have members.

Seems to me that currently the normal shareholders have zero say.
 
 
+1 #23 Auldyin 2011-10-03 15:45
Quoting TiminExile:
Am i right in thinking DD owns just under 30% of the shares, so the majority of the other 70% are in the hands of normal celtic fans who in the main stumped up £600quid in 94/95 ?

Surely that 70% should be getting together to have a say in the running of the club? It seems that at AGM's no hard questions are put to the board. those 70% should be turning round to DD and saying, "you don't own the club, we do!"
Can the 70% not get a boice on the board.

If DD wants to appoint a Chief executibe, a list of candidates should be put to every shareholder to vote on. Each candidate could market his plans for the running of the club (transfers, youths, facilities) etc, and the shareholders could vote in an election style every 2-4 years similiar to the clubs in spain who have members.

Seems to me that currently the normal shareholders have zero say.



There is an important issue here that I have raised withthe CST and that is the sheer logistical difficulties in having a resolution placed on the AGM agenda.

Apparently both Celtic and The CST (and all shareholding supporters are bound by stipulations in the Companies Act that make the process less than straight forward. I have suggested to the CST who do understand the only way to go about placing a resolution on the AGM table that they might consider offering a facilitation service, using their experience of the rules, to help any group with an issue to raise (that is not in conflict with any CST policy of course)to get that resolution tabled.

But for the CST to go further than just mulling it over, they would need some idea if the service would indeed be used. When I have asked this question on line I get no feed back.

There ARE genuine logistical problems the question is does the will exist to try and find a way to tackle them? I suggest that anyone interested contact the CST and maybe go along to their next meeting to see what can be done.

This is not about making issues CST ones, it is about sharing the resource and expertise in all of Timdom for common good.
 
 
+1 #24 Auldyin 2011-10-03 16:01
Quoting cardiffbhoy2:
Harry, an excellent and thought provoking article.

Sorry for the long winded response. I agree on pretty much most of what you say but a few comments on some of the 15 steps.

1 - What is it, what do we want to be, Top in Scotland, top 20 in Europe ? How do we hope to achieve it. Every business has a plan, ours appears non-existent. There is no succession planning, as evidenced by the appointments of our last 3 managers.
2 - I'm no fan of Lawwell, but before we do this, we have to address the issue of Dermot Desmond. If Lawwell is following orders from above then there is no point in changing him for another yes man.
5 - Davie Hay would be my choice, and should have a similar role to the likes of Rummennigge at Bayern. If John Park is currently doing this role, can we have clarity on what his qualifications are, and his successes, i.e. did he find Kayal and Izzy, for example.

10 - This comes back to step 1. As you said the club united last season, yet we are split again, less than 5 months after the end of the season. Fans, plc, players and manager all appear to be pulling in different directions.

12 - This is the single most important step. Dermot Desmond does not own Celtic, yet he acts like he does. From appearing on the pitch at Tannadice to offering his views on the manager's job chances at the Cup Final, yet he cannot attend an agm where he may face criticism from the great unwashed.

13 - TV - If you look at our accounts the vast majority of our income comes from the fans, in ticket revenues, and merchandising, with minimal from TV. It's time the fans views were taken into account rather than TV deals.

15 - membership scheme - good idea in theory, but as someone has commented, Benfica have had little onfield success - Porto shows that a PLC can work, if done properly. Lyon are another club where the business model has worked to an extent (see Why England Lose by Simon Kuper & Stefan Szymanski if you haven't already)

Again, apologies for the lengthy response, I'm only glad someone else is as "irritated" by me at our current position.


You have raised ar very important issue that I raised with Celtic and that is what exactly is our Goal/Purpose and how are we going about making it so? What exactly is our strategy as a club?

There is in fact a developmental process for doing a review that I am confident if applied properly would look at our strategy from a logical view and by involving the key stakeholders on each issue (there will be overlap) would in all probablity come up with the issues that Harry has intuitively felt, prioritise the one's that are most important with an action plan to achieve the goals.

First though we need to persuade DD that it is in everyone's benefit, his, club and support to examine the current Strategy, assess where it is meeting the main goals and make sure the risks that reduce the chances of achieving them are either minimised or in some cases eliminated.
 
 
+1 #25 Auldyin 2011-10-03 16:07
Quoting Hank Moody CSC:
Terrific article Harry.

A plan that I would have no problem in backing.

Just a few steps that caught my eye -

Step 4 - We already have a Finance Director (Eric Riley) and Commercial Director (Adrian Filby), so we're not far off what you recommend in your article.

Step 5 - In my opinion, we already have an 'unofficial' Director of Football in John Park. We know he oversees 'Football Development', Though, what is 'Football Development'? I'm sure that like any supporter of the Club would say the position is to manage the scouting network, and Youth development (with Chris McCart and John McLaughlin answerable to him).

Where my confusion starts in relation to John Park's position is how he can have say on administrative posts concerning the First Team i.e. First Team Liasion Officer. To me, he seems to be what I stated above - an 'unofficial' Director of Football.

Step 11 - As I previously mentioned, Adrian Filby's remit is Commercial Director. We could do well by obtaining contact detalis for him, and passing on our thoughts and ideas, with at least some creditable feedback coming back to fans from Mr Filby.

Had a brief look for his details but never came across anything. Could maybe ask Tony Hamilton if there is a method of contact for Mr. Filby.

Keep the articles coming Harry. Also enjoy your views on the podcast. Hail Hail



re step 11.Adrian Filby will be at the AGM and will I'm sure be happy to speak to any audience.
 
 
+1 #26 Auldyin 2011-10-03 16:23
Quoting Spud:
Trying not to be critical but this is a lot of effort Harry but in the end a slightly misguided selection of random football initiatives which work to varying degrees throughout the football world.
You fail to understand the business dynamics and the role of the ‘owner’ DD and the CEO PL. Do you honestly think that either of these men wishes to be unsuccessful? Regarding PL’s salary, as a now mid-ranking club in a diddy league we need a top professional at the helm to give us credibility and help us punch above our weight in the football world. If you pay peanuts Harry ........................
Your comments on fan ownership are interesting but again fail to acknowledge the social demographics celtic are faced with. As a predominately working class club we have a large section of our fan base whose already stretched disposable income is already given to the club through season books and merchandise. Our supporter base is not the wealthiest. In addition, we do not have the tourist fans of the EPL or Barca or Real. We are in the East End of Glasgow.
Agree with your comments regarding getting the fans out of the pubs and having a fan park. However, again this fails to take into account the cultural and tribal aspects of the fan base and the role which alcohol plays in Scottish society. The work to shift people from a few beers before a match to a Latte and some cordial banter outside the ground is a job too big for Celtic.
Sacking PL is not the answer, removing DD only works if we have another very rich Celtic fan to come in and replace him and looking across the city be careful what you wish for. Our current management team is unproven and sadly this is now being cruelly exposed but interestingly the manager seems off limits for criticism to some sections of our supporters.
As a football business we need to get the football side of the business right – bums on seats, attract high profile sponsors, invest in the match day experience and start winning. Not sure the last point is achievable with the current Manager.

On your last point you are of course correct but the football business has to be run within the constraints of the business of football and the business of football has odd rules that make it very different from normal business rules. My observation over a few years of reading comments on line is that the true nature of the football business, particularly in Scotland where we have our own, lets say peculiarities, and the impact of those pecularities on our business plans was not quite as appreciated when the current strategy was formed in 2004 as it is now.

For that reason our current strategy does need review to take recent experiences into account so that all Celtic supporters truly understand where we as a club are heading.

What if it turns out we are heading downwards BECAUSE we are a well run club in normal business terms whilst our main rivals are not, giving them unfair advantage? What can be done about that, how do we as a support get everyone on side and pulling in the same broad direction rather than pulling ourselves apart?
 
 
+2 #27 usa bhoy 2011-10-03 21:00
Some responses to your frame work

#2-We would need to know what kind of contract, if any, PL has. Is it rolling? Is there a buyout? What are the grounds for termination? If substantial costs are involved with the termination of PL, it would be less than likely to occur.

#3- How can you create a market for CEOs of football clubs? I think a great deal of dissatisfaction stems from the fact that the PL (and the board) have a number of non-football financial measurements. If we are looking at retaining a new CEO, do we want someone who’s core focus is on the corporate side or on the pitch? This is not the case where a CEO can move from corporation to corporation and look to incentivize productivity, marketability, etc. Here, we have a PLC based upon the affinity that supporters have with Celtic. Thus, for the business side, they want to capitalize on the Celtic “brand.” The last thing we want is someone to do brand development with Celtic. We want someone whose ultimate measure is not by the balance sheet, but by the trophy cabinet.

#5-I think that this will result in a wholesale reorganization of the club and not sure how it will be accomplished. For example, who hires the DoF? The CEO? Does the DoF have the freedom to dictate a football philosophy for the club? Assuming we find an attractive candidate for DoF- how does the club reorganize? For example, we know that Barcelona play the same style throughout the entire club, from youth through to the first team- would we expect the same for Celtic? Unfortunately, we have seen that one style of play (typically) is successful for domestic matches, but it does not function in Europe.Finally, if Celtic do implement a DoF, do we think that that will impact our chances at attracting UK based managers? Although we can always reach abroad to the continent where this is the norm, Celtic are, at the end of the day, in Scotland which does dictate our market.

#8-This is clearly the best way forward for the club to continue. This entails attracting the best in youth coaching candidates. The facilities are sufficient, and the NextGen series provides an excellent measuring stick for the squad. But, Scotland does not have the luxury of a Clairefontaine, or even a Lillieshall for that matter, so the development must primarily occur at the club level without any support of the SFA.

#9- We have demonstrated an interest in looking abroad recently. But if we continue to pare down expenses, we have to be cautions of spending limited transfer resources from players from ‘lesser’ leagues. If we can only spend, say 5 million per transfer window, we need those players to be difference makers. We cannot afford to spend 2.5 million for a player like Bangura unless we are certain that he can come in and produce immediately. Spending more money on youth setup lowers the margain of error in transfer outlays.

#12- Need an accurate accounting of DD's investment, outlays, partners etc. If we have a real world figure on the amount of money he has tied up in Celtic, then we can determine how much influence he actually wields.

#13-Need to look at the last round of contract negotiations to get a fair assessment of starting points, demands, etc. Also, as demonstrated in Spain, a big two that hoard all of the TV revenue reinforces the gap between the have/have-nots.

#14- This is something that a private developer can come to the club with. Put a call out there to anyone (after the Commonwealth Games of course) to develop the area around the club. A well founded proposal presented to the board, complete with financials, might well sway the club to develop the area surrounding the park. Here in the States, areas surrounding stadiums are usually filled with commercial and retail establishments to cash in with the gameday crowds.

#15-I think you are being underly ambitious here. 50K supporters? I bet you can get that from the diaspora. Actually, I am not sure if there are any legal hurdles that would bar people from buying into an ownership scheme? I'd assume most season book fans would buy in. Only prob is if people buy shares on behalf of children, you would have guardians voting for more than I share.
 
 
+1 #28 Harry Brady 2011-10-03 21:45
#4 Hank Moody CSC - The fact that no-one knows these people illustrate my problem with communication. I would also question whether these people are executive directors. Your point about Park and other issues in the football division also illustrate the problem with lack of clarity.

#5 Michael McKeown - Step 14 needs very different thinking but can be done properly at little cost. Step 13 - I wrote on this site in April about my thoughts on league reconstruction and how you could still accommodate TV AND a league structure which minimised fan disruption.

#6 Sir Alfie Connand Doyle - With the issues we've had, whether we do or don;t have a new manager should be decided upon by the DoF

#8 mickzg2n - God strategies - Henrik's moved on mate!

#9 john88 - Thanks and agreed

#13 Theyhaveneverwonit - I understand your point - which is why I say after the paragraph you refer to that the football division is obviously the most important part of the club, but in any industry you cannot be successful long term if the support parts of the company aren't operating correctly. I fully appreciate your point that for many fans they couldn't care less about the board room. If you want a change of manager however I would argue that only by getting the board room correct can you hire the right guy. For example we appointed Lennon because other candidates weren't interested in working to the financial policies of the current board.

Also you mention my interest in membership scheme being prodded by Brian Dempsey. Actually I attended Celts for Change meeting because I wanted a broader fan ownership and I first wrote about a membership system on ETims about 6 years ago following attendance at a waste of time Trust meeting.

#15 Quiet Assassin - Thanks for the comments. DoF is a tricky role, should be a football person who understands business (not Pat Nevin as Motherwell showed!) There is a danger if you have a former football manager in the post - can you imagine Lennon's current position if MoN were DoF. On the other hand you wouldn't want someone who's been out of the game too long, hence the names I suggested.

#16 Spud - Hey if you think I'm writing sh1te that's fair enough. I would disagree on a couple of things. I agree that DD & PL are not looking to lose money but; I think DD invested in Celtic as a punt on us maybe getting into EPL. That is now not happening so it's now about investment protection. Scale things back and avoid risk taking and we'll quite happily tick along at circa £40-£50m turnover until the economy changes.

On your comments on fan ownership, I agree re: EPL, Braca & R Madrid - Hamburg & Benfica? Also I think you would be surprised about the strength of "brand Celtic" Also please remember when Fergus launched the share issue we were in the middle of a recession with average attendances below 30,000. I accept however that this would be a "challenge"

#18 dannybhoy170 - As I say at the beginning, this article was motivated by the Sion result and the fact that after different managers, players & systems we faced the same mistakes. It was posted 1 hr after Tynecastle - I can't type that quickly! Also most of the points here have been contained in comments in articles or podcasts previously (eg Neil McCallum's piece on the board failing their own KPI's). If the thoughts were already there, I accept that the motivation comes from defeats.

#19 cardiffbhoy2 - I think some of your points have been covered above. I accept your point on PL. If that is the case, even more reasons why £750k is too high a salary.

#20 brendan2k - Thanks. I thought I was weird as I'd quite like a latte. I accept that for many the pint is the be all and end all, but we should encourage an alternative. Matchday spending at CP is £2 per head. Old Trafford £7 per head.

#22 TiminExile - DD owns just over 30% with various other individuals owning 5% here and 10% there. These individuals SEEM to be quite happy for DD's plans to run hence resolutions being passed at 99.4% at AGM etc. Membership scheme changes ALL of that (if we want it, which is the $64,000 question that some article and replies can't answer).

#23 Auldyin - Unfortunately I find the CST a complete waste of time. They were one of the founders of the supporters trust movement but have stood still, especially as Shaun (sorry forget name) no longer seems to be involved. I have attended 3 meetings and at each one perceived that they were quite happy with their lot. I have tried on numerous occasions to enter dialogue without success. Indeed they called me a Thatcherite because I complained that they didn't appear until page 5 of a google search.

Your comment on persuading DD is key here. Basically any change could only work if we carry DD with us. Whatever our thoughts on him, we'll only move on from his involvement if he wants to.

In general I think you have answered many of the points I have made above (If i'd read all the way to the end first I probably could have saved time!)

To all (if not mentioned here, thanks for the comments. This piece was written in frustration that things are just not right. We'll see at the AGM if the board agree that something different should be done
 
 
+1 #29 eddiepearson 2011-10-03 22:02
With regard to 50,000 being too low a figure I would say it would be a reasonable target for year one. We'd obviously hope to build on that but it would take time.
 
 
+1 #30 cardiffbhoy2 2011-10-03 22:36
Harry, I have to agree on the CST. I contacted them recently with a query regarding membership, and number and spread of shareholders they represented. I'm still waiting on a reply. They have their own agenda, and to be frank, it is all about getting a fan on the board. At least you are coming up with something credible for people to discuss and debate.

usabhoy - i worked some numbers before, and I am pretty sure that the value of desmond's current shareholding isn't worth too much less than he has originally invested, once you factor in the dividends he has been entitled to. I will need to do them again to be sure, but will try to forward to harry so he can have it for when he is going to present at the AGM !
 
 
+1 #31 Auldyin 2011-10-03 22:56
Quoting Harry Brady:
#4 Hank Moody CSC - The fact that no-one knows these people illustrate my problem with communication. I would also question whether these people are executive directors. Your point about Park and other issues in the football division also illustrate the problem with lack of clarity.

#5 Michael McKeown - Step 14 needs very different thinking but can be done properly at little cost. Step 13 - I wrote on this site in April about my thoughts on league reconstruction and how you could still accommodate TV AND a league structure which minimised fan disruption.

#6 Sir Alfie Connand Doyle - With the issues we've had, whether we do or don;t have a new manager should be decided upon by the DoF

#8 mickzg2n - God strategies - Henrik's moved on mate!

#9 john88 - Thanks and agreed

#13 Theyhaveneverwonit - I understand your point - which is why I say after the paragraph you refer to that the football division is obviously the most important part of the club, but in any industry you cannot be successful long term if the support parts of the company aren't operating correctly. I fully appreciate your point that for many fans they couldn't care less about the board room. If you want a change of manager however I would argue that only by getting the board room correct can you hire the right guy. For example we appointed Lennon because other candidates weren't interested in working to the financial policies of the current board.

Also you mention my interest in membership scheme being prodded by Brian Dempsey. Actually I attended Celts for Change meeting because I wanted a broader fan ownership and I first wrote about a membership system on ETims about 6 years ago following attendance at a waste of time Trust meeting.

#15 Quiet Assassin - Thanks for the comments. DoF is a tricky role, should be a football person who understands business (not Pat Nevin as Motherwell showed!) There is a danger if you have a former football manager in the post - can you imagine Lennon's current position if MoN were DoF. On the other hand you wouldn't want someone who's been out of the game too long, hence the names I suggested.

#16 Spud - Hey if you think I'm writing sh1te that's fair enough. I would disagree on a couple of things. I agree that DD & PL are not looking to lose money but; I think DD invested in Celtic as a punt on us maybe getting into EPL. That is now not happening so it's now about investment protection. Scale things back and avoid risk taking and we'll quite happily tick along at circa £40-£50m turnover until the economy changes.

On your comments on fan ownership, I agree re: EPL, Braca & R Madrid - Hamburg & Benfica? Also I think you would be surprised about the strength of "brand Celtic" Also please remember when Fergus launched the share issue we were in the middle of a recession with average attendances below 30,000. I accept however that this would be a "challenge"

#18 dannybhoy170 - As I say at the beginning, this article was motivated by the Sion result and the fact that after different managers, players & systems we faced the same mistakes. It was posted 1 hr after Tynecastle - I can't type that quickly! Also most of the points here have been contained in comments in articles or podcasts previously (eg Neil McCallum's piece on the board failing their own KPI's). If the thoughts were already there, I accept that the motivation comes from defeats.

#19 cardiffbhoy2 - I think some of your points have been covered above. I accept your point on PL. If that is the case, even more reasons why £750k is too high a salary.

#20 brendan2k - Thanks. I thought I was weird as I'd quite like a latte. I accept that for many the pint is the be all and end all, but we should encourage an alternative. Matchday spending at CP is £2 per head. Old Trafford £7 per head.

#22 TiminExile - DD owns just over 30% with various other individuals owning 5% here and 10% there. These individuals SEEM to be quite happy for DD's plans to run hence resolutions being passed at 99.4% at AGM etc. Membership scheme changes ALL of that (if we want it, which is the $64,000 question that some article and replies can't answer).

#23 Auldyin - Unfortunately I find the CST a complete waste of time. They were one of the founders of the supporters trust movement but have stood still, especially as Shaun (sorry forget name) no longer seems to be involved. I have attended 3 meetings and at each one perceived that they were quite happy with their lot. I have tried on numerous occasions to enter dialogue without success. Indeed they called me a Thatcherite because I complained that they didn't appear until page 5 of a google search.

Your comment on persuading DD is key here. Basically any change could only work if we carry DD with us. Whatever our thoughts on him, we'll only move on from his involvement if he wants to.

In general I think you have answered many of the points I have made above (If i'd read all the way to the end first I probably could have saved time!)

To all (if not mentioned here, thanks for the comments. This piece was written in frustration that things are just not right. We'll see at the AGM if the board agree that something different should be done


Harry and Cardiffbhoy
I have had the opportunity to talk to both CST and CSA and just as Celtic need a revival plan so do they in my opinion but then I thought why do each separately?

We are all part of the one club so why not look at the various supportive roles that each party can bring to the table and that includes the marvellous Celtic Cyberspace contributors. It all became obvious when reporting back on the Roadshow last year and Eddie was good enough to publish this.

http://celticunderground.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=383:after-the-ball&catid=45:season-2010-2011&Itemid=80

We need as a club to be more united than ever right across the club and support spectrum.
 
 
+4 #32 polloks 2011-10-04 03:16
Step 1- Sack the failing manager...he cant put a team together that can beat the mighty football brain that is Super Sally.
If it were Strachan or Mowbray ... the people on here would have been the first in the queue calling for his head.
I feel sorry for the crap and sectarianism Neil has had to put up with....but for the good of the club, he has to go, as he is too inexperienced to manage Celtic.
vote me down all you want...but the people who want to silence me were the very people saying 'sack the manager' over the last few years. So what's the difference between then and now?
 
 
+1 #33 Gary67 2011-10-04 07:02
A very interesting and thought provoking article, the vast majority of which I agree with. However, as long as Desmond is in total control of Celtic we won't even reach Step 1.
Step 1 of any strategy to move the club forward needs to be getting him to sell his shares to someone who is at least interested in the club enough to attend board meetings, AGMs and even matches.
 
 
+4 #34 cardiffbhoy2 2011-10-04 14:54
Harry, and USA Bhoy.

I've had a quick look through the accounts since 1999.

In 1999 DD had a shareholding of 1439300 ordinary shares and 5131300 preference shares, which I assume he would have purchased at the original price which equated to 60p a share from memory. (Think is was £60 but then they split each share into 100)

At that stage he would have spent £3.94m to buy his shareholding.

He purchased a further 2834470 from Fergus when he sold up in October 1999, with the price at the time £2.80. So that would have been another £7.94m. (£11.88m total)

In 2001 he purchased 8m of the 18m new convertible preference shares issued. This cost him £10m (share price £1.25) (Thats £21.88m to date)

Sometime in 2001/2002 he bought 2m ordinary shares, which had a peak price of 1.20 over that period so let's assume he paid top price, that's another £2.4m (£24.28m)

In December 2005 he bought a furher 26.5m @ 30p each, costing him £7.95m

So his shareholding, to date, has cost him around £32.23m, a not insignificant amount of money it has to be said.

Based on the current share prices, and the amount of his shareholding as detailed in the latest report, this is currently worth around £19.1m. A fair drop from what he has put in, now worth just less than 60% of his original investment.

It is worth noting though that the average supporter who may have purchased shares initially when Fergus took over the club, and then purchased further shares when Fergus sold up, the value of your shareholding now would be worth around 40% of the original investment so Dermot has done better than the rest of us.

In addition he has been entitled to dividends of around £7.6m, so he is overall down around £5.5m for his investment in the club, a lot of money admittedly, but when you are worth £1.45bn, that represents small change,

Could we raise £20m to buy Dermot out ? That is £400 from 50,000 people. Would that be enough for Dermot, we need to know what he wants from Celtic.
 
 
+1 #35 cardiffbhoy2 2011-10-04 14:58
Oh and Harry - something else I noticed in the accounts. While all the Peter Lawwell apologists continue to tell us what a great Celtic man he is, it's interesting to note that he didn't actually own any shares in the company prior to 2003 when he became a member of the board.

Now being a shareholder does not make you any more of a fan than the next man, just interesting that Lawwell hadn't owned shares previously.
 
 
+3 #36 Theyhaveneverwonit 2011-10-04 16:24
Quoting polloks:
Step 1- Sack the failing manager...he cant put a team together that can beat the mighty football brain that is Super Sally.
If it were Strachan or Mowbray ... the people on here would have been the first in the queue calling for his head.
I feel sorry for the crap and sectarianism Neil has had to put up with....but for the good of the club, he has to go, as he is too inexperienced to manage Celtic.
vote me down all you want...but the people who want to silence me were the very people saying 'sack the manager' over the last few years. So what's the difference between then and now?


Spot on Pollocks (dont totally agree with getting rid of Lennon though, 2 more defeats might change that), total hypocrisy from parts of the Celtic support. I recall a section of the fans (near the GB) walking down the stairs shouting "Strachan, Strachan get tae f..." after the defeat at home to Motherwell, a few games later we won the Title at Tannadice. Yes Neil is entitled to a huge amount of tolerance given his circumstances but Strachan in particular was never given much tolerance from Artmedia onwards despite having to make circa £28m of cuts (I use that figure after reading a Phil McGillivan" article, cant be erchied spelling it the Gaelic way) and he still delivered considerable success on the field.

Not wanting to turn this into a different argument but I feel part of Harry's focus on getting rid of Peter Lawell diverts attention whilst there is no suggestion of any need to do anything with "The most important employees ......in the football division". We did well last season considering it was NL's first season but we are going backwards now and it needs to be addressed quickly by NL as there is absolutely no sign of improvement despite a bigger squad.

Harry thanks for your reply at #28, apologies if I was a bit sceptical on your Membership scheme background. I think though as Brian Dempsey said, it was an opportunity missed, I'm not certain going from a plc to that system is wholly achievable. Also we have to remember that whilst we have a lot of good Irish & Scottish ex pat support in distant lands, that support will be diluted more and more each year and we have to face up to the fact that in say 20-30 years the vast majority of people prepared to pay circa £200 a year, every year will be based in Northern Ireland and Scotland and will the membership scheme be sustainable without considerable input from abroad. I'm not so sure.
 
 
+1 #37 eddiepearson 2011-10-04 19:44
Quoting Theyhaveneverwonit:
Quoting polloks:
Step 1- Sack the failing manager...he cant put a team together that can beat the mighty football brain that is Super Sally.
If it were Strachan or Mowbray ... the people on here would have been the first in the queue calling for his head.
I feel sorry for the crap and sectarianism Neil has had to put up with....but for the good of the club, he has to go, as he is too inexperienced to manage Celtic.
vote me down all you want...but the people who want to silence me were the very people saying 'sack the manager' over the last few years. So what's the difference between then and now?


Spot on Pollocks (dont totally agree with getting rid of Lennon though, 2 more defeats might change that), total hypocrisy from parts of the Celtic support. I recall a section of the fans (near the GB) walking down the stairs shouting "Strachan, Strachan get tae f..." after the defeat at home to Motherwell, a few games later we won the Title at Tannadice. Yes Neil is entitled to a huge amount of tolerance given his circumstances but Strachan in particular was never given much tolerance from Artmedia onwards despite having to make circa £28m of cuts (I use that figure after reading a Phil McGillivan" article, cant be erchied spelling it the Gaelic way) and he still delivered considerable success on the field.

Not wanting to turn this into a different argument but I feel part of Harry's focus on getting rid of Peter Lawell diverts attention whilst there is no suggestion of any need to do anything with "The most important employees ......in the football division". We did well last season considering it was NL's first season but we are going backwards now and it needs to be addressed quickly by NL as there is absolutely no sign of improvement despite a bigger squad.

Harry thanks for your reply at #28, apologies if I was a bit sceptical on your Membership scheme background. I think though as Brian Dempsey said, it was an opportunity missed, I'm not certain going from a plc to that system is wholly achievable. Also we have to remember that whilst we have a lot of good Irish & Scottish ex pat support in distant lands, that support will be diluted more and more each year and we have to face up to the fact that in say 20-30 years the vast majority of people prepared to pay circa £200 a year, every year will be based in Northern Ireland and Scotland and will the membership scheme be sustainable without considerable input from abroad. I'm not so sure.


All relevant points but it's worth looking at alternatives because this current board doesn't appear to have any ideas.
 
 
+3 #38 Macq 2011-10-04 20:09
Benfica have won the Portuguese League only twice since 1994. Take it back more than twenty years to 1989 it's only 4 times.

Whatever model they are choosing to implement it's not exactly bringing much success on the pitch. A bit like the current Celtic Board then.

As for DD and his portion of the shareholding, legally it amounts to around 29.9% the last time I checked. However, when you consider the under-the-radar holdings that are registered via his family, friends, associates, pet hamster it amounts to basically a massive controlling stake in the club.

He had some delusional thinking around the year 2000 when he appointed MON, that we and rangers would soon be accepted into the money-spinning EPL. I have no doubt that DD sold Celtic to MON on the EPL premise. He must have been smoking some LSD-laced fags at the time. He allowed MON to spend some serious dosh to impress his pals at Man U (McManus and co)to try to prove that we had the muscle to compete with the big boys.

Around that time we also arranged a series of friendlies/played in testimonials down south which showed the size of our support and the strength of our team. Games such as the Giggs testimonial, we played at Elland Road, White Hart Lane, Craven Cottage et al. We took those games seriously and won most of them. It was DDs way of telling the English that we would sit well at the top EPL table.

As the years went on it soon became apparent that the English turkeys wouldn't vote for Christmas. DDs interest in Celtic soon waned. He was no longer willing to give the manager the serious sums that took us to a treble, domestic dominance over HMRC FC and a UEFA Cup Final.

Sure, DD showed up now and again (though not usually at the AGM)on occasions such as the last night we won the title when he was telling anyone who would listen that we would kick on from the 3IAR titles.

The fact that he chose MON's successor after a chance meeting with him at the races says all you need to know about his attitude to us. His EPL dream had died, and Celtic were no longer his play thing. We were meant to be his ticket to the EPL top table. But now we are mere leftovers, who hardly even get the scraps from his own dogs dinner.

Welcome to Celtic in the 2010s.
 
 
+1 #39 Theyhaveneverwonit 2011-10-04 21:53
Quoting eddiepearson:
All relevant points but it's worth looking at alternatives because this current board doesn't appear to have any ideas.


Agree with that Eddie, our Board has done well in growing the Club but in recent years our idea dept has stagnated. Fresh thinking needed.
 
 
+1 #40 Quiet Assassin 2011-10-05 06:37
Quoting eddiepearson:
All relevant points but it's worth looking at alternatives because this current board doesn't appear to have any ideas.


The only idea this board have had in the last 5 seasons has been to reduce the debt. I'll have to grudgingly give them credit for sticking to that plan at least, despite the effect to the detriment it's had regarding the football.

It's about time who has the clout actually spoke up and reminded this board that no-one will want to see a framed balance sheet in a trophy cabinet and certainly not accept watching a rank rotten RFC lift another title. That would be completely unacceptable and I'll wager now that if it were to happen there will be demonstrations at the door of CP as a result of the board's rank negligence of duty.
 
 
0 #41 Quiet Assassin 2011-10-05 06:48
Quoting Harry Brady:
#15 Quiet Assassin - Thanks for the comments. DoF is a tricky role, should be a football person who understands business (not Pat Nevin as Motherwell showed!) There is a danger if you have a former football manager in the post - can you imagine Lennon's current position if MoN were DoF. On the other hand you wouldn't want someone who's been out of the game too long, hence the names I suggested.


I'd go even further Harry and say it should be an ex Celtic man who not only knows business but is also a shrewd politician as he'd need to be. McStay is an obvious choice but I'd worry he's too nice, too amiable. Ditto Dr Jo and also Wim. Definitely a tough one to call though but regardless we'd need someone who was focused only on the football and who was detached from the "zero debt mentality" that is at present rife within our club.

It's patently obvious to all of us that if our club does not enter into a period of sustained investment not only will we continue to pour money into needless managerial changes and compensations, but we will probably find ourselves a distant 3rd and our team playing to crowds of 10k max!
 
 
+1 #42 Quiet Assassin 2011-10-05 08:35
Quoting Theyhaveneverwonit:
Agree with that Eddie, our Board has done well in growing the Club but in recent years our idea dept has stagnated. Fresh thinking needed.


I'd seriously argue against your assertion that the board have done well growing the club. To reduce debt and cut investment is not conducive to growth of a business.

In a purely business sense we have stagnated. The only thing the board can genuinely glad hand one another over is the reduction of debt. We are not showing any significant growth in any area of the business or more importantly the team.

Yet those who make the decisions are picking up very meaty bonuses for a job well done. Doesn't quite sit right does it!
 
 
+1 #43 Macq 2011-10-05 18:17
The ludicrous behaviour of the Celtic Trust in their campaign to get Lennon as manger is proof positive that when it comes to running a football club it should be left to others.

That is not to say we can be treated with disdain, and in all honesty if the Board hadn't wanted Lennon as manager they wouldn't have taken him on, regardless of what lunatics such as Jeanette Findlay had said.

But the moral of the tale is that the punters are in no great shape to have too much of a hands on influence.

Don't mistreat us, but at the same time we shouldn't be making the big decisions.
 
 
+1 #44 usa bhoy 2011-10-05 21:05
Quoting cardiffbhoy2:
Harry, and USA Bhoy.

I've had a quick look through the accounts since 1999.

In 1999 DD had a shareholding of 1439300 ordinary shares and 5131300 preference shares, which I assume he would have purchased at the original price which equated to 60p a share from memory. (Think is was £60 but then they split each share into 100)

At that stage he would have spent £3.94m to buy his shareholding.

He purchased a further 2834470 from Fergus when he sold up in October 1999, with the price at the time £2.80. So that would have been another £7.94m. (£11.88m total)

In 2001 he purchased 8m of the 18m new convertible preference shares issued. This cost him £10m (share price £1.25) (Thats £21.88m to date)

Sometime in 2001/2002 he bought 2m ordinary shares, which had a peak price of 1.20 over that period so let's assume he paid top price, that's another £2.4m (£24.28m)

In December 2005 he bought a furher 26.5m @ 30p each, costing him £7.95m

So his shareholding, to date, has cost him around £32.23m, a not insignificant amount of money it has to be said.

Based on the current share prices, and the amount of his shareholding as detailed in the latest report, this is currently worth around £19.1m. A fair drop from what he has put in, now worth just less than 60% of his original investment.

It is worth noting though that the average supporter who may have purchased shares initially when Fergus took over the club, and then purchased further shares when Fergus sold up, the value of your shareholding now would be worth around 40% of the original investment so Dermot has done better than the rest of us.

In addition he has been entitled to dividends of around £7.6m, so he is overall down around £5.5m for his investment in the club, a lot of money admittedly, but when you are worth £1.45bn, that represents small change,

Could we raise £20m to buy Dermot out ? That is £400 from 50,000 people. Would that be enough for Dermot, we need to know what he wants from Celtic.


Thanks for the work cardiffbhoy-
so we have a start on what would need to be done. We know that DD is down on his initial investment and probably would not want to take a loss by selling now. But, based upon recent events, it also looks like he is unwilling to commit sersious investment into the squad. So, unless he gets an above market value offer for his shares, we don't have much hope of moving DD. A further complication would be if multiple people tried to buy him out, you would lose the ability to control his portion of the PLC in concert with each other. Ideally, you would want a small number of people acting in concert to come up with the total.

Does anyone have info on PL's ownings in the PLC? Or the terms of his contract?
 
 
+2 #45 cardiffbhoy2 2011-10-06 11:49
Harry,

Just posted this on Mark Cooper's article on Celtic & Porto but it's probably equally relevant here, and touches on a number of your steps.

I've just started reading "Moneyball". If you dont know it, its about Billy Beane who reinvented the recruitment policy for the Oakland A's baseball team.

There is a quote in there around the draft, where around 2 of 50 players drafted make it, and how that is a success rate you wouldn't tolerate in any other line of business.

I had a look at Celtic's recruitment since Martin O'Neill came in in the summer of 2000, and some of the numbers are quite scary.

O'Neill recruited 19 first team players, 9 of whom you would say where successes, 10 if you include Rab Douglas. 9 of those were in his first 2 seasons, of 11 signings. You could argue that only Bellamy was a success of the players he signed after 2002.

Gordon Strachan bought 39, only 13 to 15 of whom I would consider to be a success, that includes Scott Brown and Samaras as successes.

Tony Mowbray bought 12 players, of whom only Ki and the on-loan Robbie Keane would be considered as successful signings.

Neil Lennon brought 13 players in last season, and you could argue that of those only Juarez, Murphy and Ljunberg have been unsuccessful, whilst there may be doubts and differing views around some of the others. It's hard to judge any of this seasons 5 signings yet. To be fair to Neil, he seems to have recruited well, indeed as well as anyone since MON.

What the stats appear to show is that our most successful signings were our most expensive ones, was never going to be rocket science to work that out. What is concerning though is the lack of value we obtain when we shop at mid-market levels.

An overhaul of our recruitment policy has to be a fundamental step of any moves forward.
 
 
+1 #46 eddiepearson 2011-10-09 19:15
So who's all off to the AGM anyway?
 
 
0 #48 Harry Brady 2011-10-17 20:27
Various people seem to have director in their title at CP, but to answer all who've asked above, the official website confirms there are 2 (two) executive directors at Celtic - executive Directors – the Chief Executive, Peter Lawwell and Financial Director, Eric Riley.
 
 
0 #49 ticfan 2011-10-20 00:00
Harry, I applauded you for the work you have done on this but at the same time I have major concerns with your plan, see below.
Steps 1 agree
Step 2 why does he need to leave, because of his salary? This is made up of a basic plus bonuses and as far as I know par for the course.
Step 3 Where’s the proof? You’re telling me there are companies with £100 million turnover paying CEOs around £250K!!!! I think not.
Step 4 you’re listening to other people, who may have an axe to grind against PL you can’t make a decision based on what other people tell you., give us facts not rumour.
Step 5 agree
Step 6 agree
Step 7 50% I think you’re way off the mark with this one. Years ago we’d certainly managed this but these days there are fewer Scottish young people playing football so naturally there are fewer people coming through the ranks. I think you need to be more realistic.
Step 8 agree this year we’ve seen Celtic and Rangers both losing to European teams with less of a turn over and a lot lower wage bill then us. In terms of European competitions we’re under achieving.
Step 9 we can’t have a worldwide scouting system as the present rules state non-European players must have played half their recent games for their international teams. So we’re at a disadvantage right away. A change of rules needed and this needs UK wide agreement. But why can’t we have special agreements for Commonwealth players?
Step 10 agree
Step 11 agree
Step 12 again you are relying on heresay, this is not good enough. You say DD runs the club but you don’t give any evidence of this. He’s a non ex director how can he be running the club?
Step 13 agree
Step 14 agree
Step 15 this is the one I have a major difficulty with. You need the present shareholders to decide to agree to turn their shares into membership, turkeys voting for Christmas, I can’t see that happening. Celtic is a PLC, people own shares in it they will not agree to give over shares for a membership that requires them to pay a fee yearly. DD owns around 29% of the shares that means others own 71% he may be the biggest single shareholder but he doesn’t hold a majority. If you think things could be better convince the other 71%.
While I think you’ve done a marvellous job in bringing this to the attention of the everyday supporter although I think there are major flaws in your plan. That said I do feel the Board have a duty to listen to the fans as the Board don’t have the monopoly on the best ideas.
I believe that the small shareholder should be represented on the board but it is up to us small shareholders to organise ourselves better and make our case to the Board.
Things are not at their greatest in Scottish football at the moment and the answers to the problems lie with the fans, the proposal for a 10 team top league is an example of why the fans must be consulted and why the committees should not have the final say. The way I see at it, the club has the product and we, the fans, are the customers if the product is not what we the consumer wants then the producer, the club, has to ask us what we want and how to improve the product so that it becomes what we want. Sadly the SFA and others see TV as the consumer not the fans attending the games and as long as this is the case we will not move forward.

Harry, I thank you for bringing forward your plan while I don’t agree with all of it, it is a start, it allows discussion and that can only be good. The above is in no way a criticism of you it is merely my thoughts and I am open to other ideas and thoughts.
Keep up the good work.
Hail Hail
 

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